Shut up, Karen

LadySybilVimes

On Another Site I saw someone calling people Karen. Does anyone else hate this and find it not only sexist but also ageist and classist as well? Karens tend to be in their 40s and upwards I think and it’s such a sneering put-down of middle-aged women. I don’t think much of people who use it as an insult and I see lots of woke men using it interchangeably with their other favourite, “terf”.

I read this article by Hadley Freeman a while back about the casual sexism of “Karen” about how it’s been gleefully coopted as a way to abuse women online: https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/13/the-karen-meme-is-everywhere-and-it-has-become-mired-in-sexism

This one by Helen Lewis was good too: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/08/karen-meme-coronavirus/615355/

Sabrina

I think calling someone a Karen is a good way to try and shut down someone’s point of view while signalling that by default you are certainly no Karen yourself, therefore you must be correct, i.e. let’s all have a good giggle at the other person while we pat ourselves on the back for being morally superior, more socially aware, more insightful, more caring, social justice warrior etc.

I find the nu-left has certainly embraced the Karen principle with gusto, possibly around the same time it embraced cancel culture, virtue signalling, dismissing free speech and stopped trying to listen to all points of view in order to find common ground to move forward. Is it a quick easy way to dismissing another point of view, trying to discredit them without needing to argue a point?

Just by saying someone is a “Karen” might make others hesitant to agree, just because they don’t want to be seen in that light themselves. Possibly it’s also a good way to create othering, so a good guys v bad guys situation, where you never actually need to argue a point as you’ve already staked your claim subconsciously.

Ellie

Yep, I loathe it. I really can’t fathom why so many women are ok with it.

wannabefree

I’m not ok with it.

Women in their 40’s have quite a few years of life under their belt, have often reached a level of seniority in their careers, are more assertive, and now that they are invisible to the male gaze no longer care about pleasing them.

The whole Karen thing is just a way to put them back in their box.

LL55

I’m conflicted.

I am unhappy with how it’s been co-opted by men and “pick me” women to silence some women. But I’m entirely ok with it being used as a term to describe a certain kind of white woman who uses her power to further marginalise black women. Black women should be able to name that particular phenomena, and to be able to speak up about it.

My thoughts are that once again men have taken something from women (black women in this case) and made it their own - leaving the women on the receiving end stuck. Complaining about it as a sexist (ageist, classist) term feels to me only makes it worse. Like men have forced certain women into the lose lose position of either ignoring and copping the slur, or centering themselves above black women by defending themselves against it.

That’s my humble opinion, with which I am sure many will disagree.

Jane-Jetson

I totally agree. It was fair enough at first. It pertained to that particular sort of officious white woman who would weaponise capitalism against service workers, especially POC and low-earning people.

Now it’s used by men and just means, “a woman is talking, she’s not as fuckable as I’d like so here’s a quick easy way to shame and shut her up”. And that second-last line is perfect! It puts women (especially if we’re white and those who have class privilege) in that impossible situation - either you’re Not All White Women-ing or you’re taking slurs from men lying down.

So I hate it. Throw the whole thing out, think of a new way to describe women who weaponise their class/white privilege.

IcyPole

@Sabrina you’ve nailed my thoughts and feelings on this. I fucking hate it.

My own husband was dumb enough to call me a Karen when I was about to go into the school office to complain about something. I was so surprised that he did that that I rethought and didn’t complain. He shut me down by making me doubt myself. I bloody should have complained. I still regret listening to what he said and taking it to heart.

A few days later I got the shits at him and told him to not pull that shit again and not call me a Karen again. That if he had something to say to say it directly without using an insulting term that is used to shut down women expressing an opinion.

LadySybilVimes

I’m fine with black women using it to define their experiences but once everyone started using it, in all kinds of different ways - Karen complains too much, Karen doesn’t speak up against injustice, Karen has wrong opinions, Karen isn’t fuckable - it devolves into lazy sexism, I think.

Jane-Jetson

DH sent me this a week or so ago, which was interesting: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/08/karen-meme-coronavirus/615355/

Oh it’s the same one! Lol. Someone’s not paying attention today.

Ellie

I get the origins but I wouldn’t have assumed that exploiting white and class privilege was solely the domain of white middle aged women, I’d probably be pretty safe in betting that white middle aged men are at least equally as capable of it…. yet there is only one sex targeted and now more broadly silenced as a result. Both my dad and aunt could be safely labelled as a Karen, but they are actually both named Kerry. The fact another catchy word or more gender neutral name wasn’t picked to me still screams sexism. I really doubt though it would have gained the same traction if it didn’t solely target women though.

LadySybilVimes

There’s also a Reddit origin story for the Karen slur started by a bloke, isn’t there? Fuck you, Karen? I think the Atlantic article talks about it.

It just seems like whatever a woman does there’s someone around to remind her that her opinions are worthless.

OnFire

Karen, terf, witch.

All words males use to put women in their place.

AnnHiggins

used in its original context i think it was a valid statement to make about white women and intersectional feminism. i think it’s long served its purpose though - certainly in the way it’s commonly used now - i think mainly as an excuse to indulge in internalised misogyny whilst appearing woke.

mumpteen

I feel sorry for people whose name is actually Karen.

It shits me too, in the same way that OK Boomer does. When it first came out it was smart and making a point about privilege and ignorance and now it’s just an ageist insult. Karen’s the same but sexist. It’s not really the terms that are annoying, it is the way people in the internet community misunderstand and misuse things (or deliberately repurpose them).

AprilEthereal

I’ve often wondered what the male equivalent to Karen was. Is there one?

PuddingPlease

AprilEthereal

There are derogatory names used for men but none of them have precisely the same meaning as ‘Karen’. I think it’s probably true that the kinds of traits that people associate with a ‘Karen’ are considered far more egregious in women than men. A couple of the articles that people have linked above talk about attempts on places like Reddit to use other names (I think one mentions Kyle) as a male equivalent but clearly that has yet to really take off.

Someone mentioned the blonde jokes of the 80’s and 90’s the other day and I wonder if the Karen thing will end up sounding a bit like that in a decade or so.

catbus

I hate it for all the above reasons but also because there’s been times where I have addressed legitimate issues with goods and services and have been jokingly called a Karen. Umm nope, I’m just entitled to get what I’ve paid for and should not be laughed at for addressing it.

PuddingPlease

catbus

Yeah. Also, asking to speak to someones manager is often a way of sparing a sales assistant from having a conversation about a problem that they do not have the power to resolve.

Gum-boots

It drives me nuts - sexist bullshit

RichardParker

I’ve seen much more obnoxious behaviour aimed at service-staff from young millennials and Gen Z than I have from middle-aged Karens. Thing is, us Karens know that we’re barely fuckable, fatter than we’d prefer, in last-seasons jeans and a hair that doesn’t move because we’ve just spent the last decade or two putting everyone’s needs before our own, while the world demands perfection from us and so yes, when we’re paying for something and it’s not right we’re going to follow it up and ask to speak to the manager because it’s not too much to ask that people actually provide what they promise when they’re getting paid to do so.