Surrogacy and parental rights

Dawnshade

https://www.rainbowfamilies.com.au/all_children_deserve_equal_rights

A friend of a friend told me their son and his partner are currently having a child through surrogacy in the USA at a cost of 250k+. I’d never much thought about surrogacy before but saw this on the Rainbow Families website.

Chookas

Interesting you posted this, I was thinking about it the other day too.

I use to think it was really sweet, a rainbow family, aww. But then, the particular family I was thinking of had twins and two dad’s conceived and born in the USA (I think), and then I got quite cranky. Imagine deliberately transferring two (or more) embryos into a woman, because you didn’t want to have to do it again. And you wanted to increase your odds, all while lowering her odds and increasing the risk to her not to mention permanently changing her body 🤬 there’s the rage back again.

Having done plenty of IVF myself and got twins out of it, I feel that we were incredibly lucky, but it certainly changed my body and I didn’t have to give them away.

PuddingPlease

I’m extraordinarily uncomfortable with any steps that would make international surrogacy easier. I know that’s a horrible thing to admit in some ways but I’ve just heard too many stories about women and girls being horrifically exploited in these industries and there is no way that we can be confident that we aren’t supporting those practices.

I have no issue at all with surrogacy in principle but international commercial surrogacy typically involves wealthy people purchasing the use of the bodies of poorer people from countries where they have fewer legal and medical protections. Any pregnancy can be risky and if the surrogate mother experiences health issues that require intervention a year or two later, it’s likely that the agency involved will have no legal obligation to her at all.

Living in a country with a public health care system, I think most intending parents probably have no idea how vulnerable that person is likely to be. Not sure whether there are more protections available for surrogates in the USA, it’s entirely possible but as a rule I think use of overseas commercial surrogacy should be discouraged.

Dawnshade

I read an article (which cant seem to find now) about a women who was paralysed through complications of birth while acting as a surrogate for her sister, she already had a 3 and 8 year old of her own. So tragic 🙁

I’ve been wondering how long until we create an artificial womb, and can create babies without use of a woman’s body at all. I found the recent news that embryos were created from skin cells quite fascinating. How long till babies are just something you go to the store to buy, or place an order for?

As someone who was only able to have a child through medical science, I’m torn between leaving nature alone and using science if we have it.

LadySybilVimes

I used to be pro-surrogacy but I’ve also become increasingly uncomfortable the last few years with wealthy people using poorer women’s bodies this way. Pregnancy is hard on women’s bodies, it can be life altering or even life threatening. Even altruistic surrogacy carries so much potential for coercion and physical harm. I believe India shut down commercial surrogacy because the potential for abuse was so great.

Obviously it’s very sad for anyone who wants a child and can’t have one, I wouldn’t want to underestimate the the grief involved, but using women’s bodies like this disturbs me.

Dawnshade

Yes, pregnancy is awful. I had HG. My DD is nearly 2 and Im still suffering the after effects of my pregnancy, mostly a non existent pelvic floor which will probably require surgery before too long and a compromised immune system, including a sudden allergy to cats, not to mention the mental health effects.

Gum-boots

Yes I’m deeply uncomfortable with commercial surrogacy.

RichardParker

I have friends - Gay Dads, who used a commercial surrogate in the US and a donor egg to have twins, then the same woman (and egg donor) to have a third. It cost a fortune. IDK. It was all very exciting and cool at first but… I’m going to put it out there that I think a child needs a mother. Adopting a child who needs a loving home (including a same-sex couple home) is one thing. Deliberately creating a child to exist without a mother is just…. But there’s issues for any couple- should we really be commodifying a woman’s body? Some things shouldn’t be bought or sold, no matter how desperately they’re wanted.

The cat’s out of the bag now, though. It’s always going to happen- and probably always has, in some form- in Centuries past it just would have been concubines having the baby of rich men the old-fashioned way. Doesn’t make it right.

Blinkybill

I think children have the right to information about how they were conceived and who their biological parents are. But I don’t know that a child needs a mother more than they need a father. Why is a mother more important?

I am also fine with altruistic and open surrogacy, but not commercial surrogacy.

Longdarkteatime

I am not fine with any surrogacy really if I am honest about it. Child birth shouldnt be undertaken on a whim and it absolutely certainly shouldnt be undertaken for a profit. It is commodifying women’s bodies and children are the commercial products. I am sure there are many people who would make great parents who for whatever reason cant biologically have children and buying them isnt the answer.

PuddingPlease

Longdarkteatime

What about someone carrying a baby for their sister or cousin or best friend? I can’t really see any issue with altruistic surrogacy provided the person is otherwise healthy and there are appropriate safeguards in place.

Longdarkteatime

PuddingPlease

Women die all around the world giving birth, I don’t think it should be something that is the go to option for anyone. What happens if the sister or friend doesn’t want to give up the baby?

PuddingPlease

Longdarkteatime

Nothing is completely without risk but that scenario seems like a far less likely outcome than other types of custody disputes that commonly arise between biological parents. I would not anticipate anyone being permitted to act as surrogate who did not already have a child and I would expect a mandatory counselling component as part of the preparation. My understanding is that that already occurs.

I have no desire to have any more children but there are probably people in my life that I would agree to have a child for if it was requested, provided the genetic material was theirs I think I would be ok with that. The critical point for me is that it not be a commercial process because of the risk this would pose to vulnerable groups of women within Australia who would almost certainly be targeted by both the unscrupulous agencies wanting to exploit them and less scrupulous men in their own families and communities eyeing a quick buck.

Kreme

A friend of mine had twins and it has destroyed her body. She’s needed surgery, physio, exercise classes for the last 20 years. I can’t imagine going through all of that and not even having the babies at the end of it.

I’ve never been comfortable with commercial surrogacy. I don’t think you should be able to buy a child. Altruistic is borderline, it can work well but I am sure there are instances when it doesn’t.

PuddingPlease

Kreme

I’ve known women in Australia who have needed surgery years after having their children too, one of the biggest issues that I have with people travelling overseas for these services is that there is often no public health system to guarantee this ongoing care and the agencies tend to move and change every couple of years to avoid liability for any of it. The idea that women are suffering from pain and disability in developing countries as a result of pregnancies they endured so that babies could be sold to wealthy people overseas, who don’t know about any of it, is awful.

I think if someone living in Australia is willing to go through the process for a loved one then it’s not such a big deal. Any ongoing medical issues will be treated, often for free, as a part of our health care system. The option of compulsory insurance forming part of the process is not one I would oppose but overall it seems reasonable to allow people to assess the remaining risks for themselves.

LadySybilVimes

I think altruistic surrogacy often drifts towards commercial surrogacy by stealth, though.

Sweden banned all surrogacy in 2016, including altruistic surrogacy: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/25/surrogacy-sweden-ban

PuddingPlease

LadySybilVimes

It might in some cases but there is no evidence of widespread misuse of altruistic surrogacy in Australia that I am aware of.

Outlawing a practice altogether precludes creating a framework in which it can be managed and, in my view, greatly increases the potential risks to everyone involved here. There is nothing stopping people from accessing IVF or conceiving children as part of informal arrangements but a legal framework that includes screening of sperm (and eggs) for STI’s, mandatory counselling and provision of extensive legal advice to all parties greatly reduces the risks.

Morrigan

I can’t help thinking if I was a poor woman and I could take the path of surrogacy, and get paid enough to buy my own home and live in comfort for a great many years, I’d want that option. After all, not having surrogacy doesn’t save them from all the other things they’ll have to do instead.

PuddingPlease

Morrigan

The problem is that that is a bit of a myth. Women who act as surrogates in developing countries do not earn anywhere near enough to buy a house, let alone live in comfort for years. They are generally required to live away from their own families during the pregnancy which means they are not available to care for their own children and there are serious questions about how consent is obtained in places where women are expected to abide by the wishes of fathers and husbands.

The industry around the world works very hard to suggest that the money women earn is truly life-changing but the number of women carrying more than one baby or making regular egg donations suggests that it’s nonsense. The impression I get is that it’s more like the equivalent of someone paying you a lump sum of ten or fifteen thousand dollars. It might pay off small debts you had and it would pay your living costs for a while but it’s not going to tangibly change your life in any way. You can’t buy property for that and it’s not a regular income that you can use to obtain a loan.

Morrigan

Yes, but I am thinking the price should reflect the sacrifice. Ten or fifteen thousand isn’t enough. It should be $250000, minimum. In some countries, that is enough to own a home. Even here if you don’t mind a one bedroom a bit outer.

I definitely can see husbands and fathers pushing the women in their lives to do it though.