After being stuck in debates ‘elsewhere’ on the internet and feeling frustrated about not being to have properly open and robust discussions without much editing, I thought I’d ask motherboard… what does feminism mean to you? I have my ‘ideal’ version in my head (not sure i could put it into words though) and then i come into the real world and I feel angry, powerless and a bit overwhelmed by it all. I am surprised to find myself as a middle class person after a very working class childhood, and a mother who had a desperately poor childhood. And I think it creates all kinds of points of tension for me. In my work, I work with a really broad cross of society. I love it. Anyway. Just more rambling from me, but would love to hear other peoples thoughts.

I read along with that thread - can’t post there anymore because I was banned for discussing issues that affect women. So I guess feminism to me means having a voice in issues that affect women - there was a poster in there banging on about voiceless women who might be reading along who aren’t privileged enough to make choices about where to send their girls to school. Well I’m one of those women but the only reason I was voiceless on that forum is because of posters like that who had me banned by playing the victim card. Side vent out of the way… feminism SHOULD in part be about women having a voice about issues that affect them.

Your post really resonated with me. I also grew up working poor, but would now be seen as middle class. Both my parents had terrible childhoods which effected their parenting, I’m still working through the issues of my childhood. The only difference would be that I don’t work with a broad cross section of society, I work in financial services. That being said my employer is very progressive, I work with people from all different groups. I feel overwhelmed, angry, sad and scared about the issues facing women, and hopeless. Feminism to me is about safety, equality, and freedom.

I guess at it’s heart, I think of feminism as equality for women. Breaking it down there are so many pieces to that, including removing societal structures that sexualise and objectify us, disadvantage us financially and socially, etc. And then more recently I’ve become more passionate about the part where we need a voice. I think I took that bit for granted before, I assumed we somewhat had one now - not in the sense that people would always listen but I thought it was a given that speaking out about feminism was ok. But over the last few years I’m seeing a move to a society where speaking up for women’s rights is shamed, attacked, or just silenced, and I’m pretty shocked that there are people twisting their brains around to this being ok. I thought this was ground we had already won. Once again, women’s rights are only allowed where they don’t infringe on men, and the language of disadvantage has now been co opted to achieve this. So now, feminism also means to me fighting in any way I can for women to have a voice.

CallMeAl I think that’s where my deep anger is stemming from now. I didn’t always speak up, and I didn’t always feel safe to do so, but there is something just so fundamentally wrong with saying to women, you can’t speak about you’re safety concerns. And it’s not just white middle class women who are being told this right now. Hibo Wadere on twitter who talks about female gential mutilation, gets attacked all the time for not including transwomen. How dare they! What was done to her and women like her is horrific and people want to quibble over transwomen not being included?

Annsy i am fortunate that my mum is awesome. She made mistakes along the way, but nothing major. She overcame an awful childhood to give us a stable, secure, loving one. I cannot stand her being condescended down to and some of those posts ‘elsewhere’ made me furious on her behalf. She didn’t need the piffle of that faux apology.

Still working out some anger apparently! 😅

For me personally It’s having a voice, being heard, having choices and the right to make those choices. I also have the right to be me. That may be overly simple, however if I add too many stipulations and caveats, my thoughts appear defensive, almost argumentative and it gets bogged down in words and loses its meaning to me.

I never really felt that I didn’t have a voice or that I was being discriminated against for being female until I had a child. Its much eaiser for me to see the injustices facing women in the role of ‘mother’, then it was as just a single woman without children. Which isn’t to say they weren’t there, just that I couldn’t see them as clearly. Raising kids brings up so many issues and shows stark differences in expectations for men and women. I remember seeing a study, where they showed a group of people a messy living space and then told people either a woman or a man lived there. When told a man lived there, they judged the space as less messy than when told a woman lived there, hence highlighting the expectation that women should clean and maintain higher standards of cleanliness.

Annsy yes!!! I think as a fairly privileged person I did not experience much sexism or disadvantage related to my sex (or didn’t notice when I did, it was probably hidden well) apart from safety concerns. But when I became a mother… yep then it all becomes so evident.

Maybe we need code for those of us that like argy bargy 😅. I like arguing and working out the edges. I also want to add a disclaimer that I’m probably terribly inconsistent and hypocritical as well , but I do try to acknowledge that.

What does feminism mean to you...

LadySybilVimes

I used to get called from another part of the house to change the TV station. Horrible.

Sometimes I think the school I went to was relatively free of abuse. I had a good time, nothing that stands out as terrible ever happened to me. But then I remember the girl who was assaulted at the swimming carnival, the girls who were raped, my friend who was sexually abused by her brother who said it was okay because they were both adopted. I remember how she left school and became a stripper because what else was there for her? I remember the feeling of dread I had sometimes around boys. I remember girls being rejected from friendships by other girls because they were sluts. Feminism gave me the words to see all that for what it was and to understand there was nothing wrong with me or any of the girls I knew.

Crombek

To answer the question - I have very complex and confusing thoughts about the concept of feminism, what it means for me, what it means for others, what it means for the system.

On one hand I’m not convinced it goes far enough. To take @Jane-Jetson’s quote - I think that has by and large been achieved. Women are generally considered people. But who’s definition of people are we using? Well of course it’s the definition most widely used by the prevailing system. So as per my nuEB post, woman can be people in as far as we display the qualities valued by the patriarchy. But I don’t want to conform to that. I don’t think anyone should need to conform to that.

I’m also incredibly confused and split on the issue of gender identity. I honestly don’t understand the obsession with creating a million different boxes that barely anyone in real life fits in. All it is doing is leading to the creation of warring tribes.

I had an interesting conversation with a friend who was trying to explain to me the difference between someone who is bisexual and pansexual. She couldn’t actually explain the difference, other than to assert that there IS a difference. I don’t know, maybe I’m just really dumb, but I dont understand in real terms how someone who can be attracted to either sex is fundamentally different to someone who is attracted to the person first, sex second.

And while we are all distracted by arguing over the arbitrary, illusory table scraps, the people at the top of the system continue to oppress us all, including the animals and environment.

Edited for woeful autocorrect

PuddingPlease

Crombek

Pansexual is actually a real bugbear of mine. There is a lot of historical stigma around bisexual people across the community and it always just looks to me like a bunch of younger people decided to make a new term to avoid all of that.

But then, to justify it, they turned the term bisexual around and started insisting that anyone using it was a horrible bigot who was trying to explicitly exclude trans and non binary people. Never mind that the term doesn’t actually exclude either of those groups.

Often when pansexual is used, it seems to get used as a way of being holier and more sanctified than the people who came before you. Many of whom faced horrible discrimination and paved the way for the next generation, only to receive further scorn from that generation because the language they used is no longer trendy. It feels like a way of eating your elders to me but maybe that’s unfair, this isn’t my community so there may be considerable nuance that I haven’t grasped.

RichardParker

I don’t believe in gender identity. I believe in gender stereotypes, gender roles, etc. I believe in personality traits, and biological sex differences, because those are supported by science. But gender identity - it’s a feeling some people have, sure, but is it a Thing in itself? I don’t believe so.

CallMeAl

RichardParker what if gender identity is the gender stereotype you feel most drawn to?

I keep coming across trans people for whom one of their things is feeling ‘right’ when called by the pronoun of their preferred gender. I don’t really get it - I don’t feel a strong response to being called she or he - but maybe that’s because I know I’m not he and they’ve just made a mistake. So I don’t really understand the feeling of ‘rightness’ around a pronoun. But it must be something to do with the associations they have with that pronoun I guess? The stereotype they link it to?

Jane-Jetson

Oh @Crombek I hope it didn’t come across as though I was arguing that sending girls to co-ed schools was throwing them to the wolves - not at all, it was more about countering the opinion that “Surely it’s better to get them used to telling boys to fuck off earlier”.

In the absence of cultural change, so that boys for the most part don’t act like the girls are there for their own amusement/benefit, a girls’ school is a good option if you have it, that’s all. I think both my DDs are the sort to benefit from a girls-only environment, it’s not for everyone. They have enough on their plates re self-esteem with the whole ADHD thing, the boys in primary weren’t helping. They were keen on the all-girls option and fortunately it was doable.

Crombek

Jane-Jetson

No, not at all, it was a couple of different posters. School choice is fraught indeed, I’m one of those heathens who send my kids Catholic so I’m certainly not going to start judging others school choice 😉. In fact my only conceptualization of single sex school is my mother (who hated it) and an in-law who is the stereotype of rich sheltered inner city girl, so neither paint a pretty picture of it at all!

I just think it’s really important to point out that so much of this is complicated by location, social and economic capital, and that can’t be ignored in discussions. I would have had no problem making that point in the thread but it was locked 🤷‍♀️.

Annsy

NightHawk no brothers. Just me and my sister.

RichardParker

I do think there should be more publicly-funded single-sex education options. It’s something that’s good for some, not for others, but it should be available to everyone.

RichardParker

CallMeAl oh yeah I don’t doubt that it’s real for them - it’s their preference, and if they feel ‘right’ with a particular pronoun and with wearing the clothes and styles of a particular gender (in this particlar culture/time - because clothing and grooming associated with a particular sex is fluid over history and culture); I’m more than happy to respect that and use their preferred pronouns.

But I think we can accomodate that preference without denying biological reality. A transwoman is not a woman because they have different physiology. The transwoman may ‘feel like a woman’ - whatever that means - it may be crucial to her identity and mental health to assert that and that’s fine. But I don’t think we need to pretend that TW and women are the same thing, biologically, somehow as a function of “Gender Identity” which, so far, no-one can actually objectively study, observe, quantify etc. Particularly when the cost is sex-based rights and boundaries for women and girls.

LadySybilVimes

What is the gender stereotype of being female? It’s something I wonder about because I see people referring a lot of things that seem outdated to me or reliant on sexist stereotypes. So, they might identify with “women are caring and nurturing and wear make up and clothes are clearly coded as female - skirts and dresses and soft, flowing things” but lots of women aren’t any of that because none of it is necessary for being female. Is it just “not male”? I find nonbinary ccnfusing because I don’t have a clear idea of what the binary is to begin with.

CallMeAl

LadySybilVimes I think the thing is that we all pick up on these stereotypes, even if we later disavow them intellectually. So many people who have said this have grown up in a family with strong gender role expectations/stereotypes from at least one parent (but maybe that’s a norm in parenting in general for that age group). So it’s inevitable perhaps that a stereotype creates some sort of internal representation that lingers even after logic has said ’it’s just a stereotype’. I sort of wonder if that’s what creates the ‘pull’ - some kind of internal stereotype with a package of connotations attached to it - and one of the words to represent it is ‘her’ or ‘him’. And then wanting that pronoun is about being drawn to that package maybe?

I dunno, I’m guessing.

Annsy

@RichardParker you are so eloquent! Exactly what you’ve said.

RichardParker

CallMeAl that’s very similar to how I feel about religious affiliation. It’s definitely a part of my identity - I don’t feel like it’s something that I can change, although it has changed over time. It has been imprinted on me from an early age so I have no idea if I was born with it or if it’s a part of me.

But I don’t think “Religious Identity” is something that exists, objectively, on an individual level for every person. And if I wanted to convert, I’d have to convert to the rules of the community that I’m converting into- if even they’d have me. I couldn’t identify into Ultra Orthodox Judaism, for example, without acceptance and integration into the community, which probably wouldn’t happen. And it would be disrespectful of me to demand that of them. Same with a racial community. They’d say, “sorry-you weren’t born into this club.”

I think it’s the same with Womanhood. If you’re not born into the club, there’s not much we can do.

Wilding

I just want to say and will leave it at that, you can raise your child with the best intentions and they can still end up as that person. As a mother who is pro-choice, anti death penalty etc, I would read those threads and just feel ashamed. The sneering from some people about “those boys”.

NightHawk

Wilding Look at families with multiple children, even twins - the same parenting doesn’t create the same outcome once all is said and done.

I think that’s along the lines of what you were saying?

CallMeAl

RichardParker I’d agree it isn’t objectively measurable like sex, if that’s what you mean by exist. I think lots of things exist that aren’t objectively measurable/observable though (like as you mentioned, religious identity).

I’m not sure about the born into it part. I agree they are not born into club female. I’m not sure what that means regarding future actions/behaviours though.

Wilding

NightHawk got it in 1.

WidowWyncke

I had typed this just as the site went down.I’ll post it and then read the previous replies.

I start from a position that there are two biological sexes.

To me that is a scientific fact.

Gender is something that has been socially constructed and nobody should be expected to identify with societies demands to act in a specific way associated with their sex.

Second wave feminism fought for women to not be defined by biology and the way society constrained them because of it.

A woman is not defined by lipstick,high heels,her legs or breasts, her appearance, her clothes, her ability to cook or sew.

RichardParker

CallMeAl Gender Identity exists as a feeling, as much as religious Identity exists as a feeling - but it’s subjective - that’s all I mean by that - it’s fine to have and think about but you can’t build a house or a toilet wall on it.

I don’t have the ability or desire to regulate actions of behaviours that don’t infringe anyone’s rights. It’s just that where the rights/segregations are sex-based, then we have to use biological sex because it’s objective, as opposed to Gender Identity which is subjective.

PuddingPlease

I think feeling heard and validated at any age is a powerful thing and that this is particularly true when we are young. Using the language that someone prefers when referring to them means that you are allowing them to control how they are defined within their home/community. I can completely see why that would make someone feel valued and (by extension) to feel a greater sense of their own value, for this reason alone it is important to respect a persons requested pronouns in my view.

Inevitably people will err in this from time to time (particularly in contexts like twitter where someone may be interacting with many people, that they have never met, all at once) and I think it is important that this not be weaponised as evidence of hidden bigotry but overall I think it is understandable for people to expect pronouns to be respected.

What I think is sometimes missing from these conversations is the open acknowledgement that dysphoria in relation to your body (as in, the feeling that there is something abnormal or not right about your body) is actually a very common experience. I don’t know many people who didn’t experience it in some capacity during adolescence when emotional and physical changes are so rapid.

I think if the language of gender dysphoria allows young people, who might otherwise have had no language to describe their feelings, a way to explain what is happening for them then that’s not a bad thing. But a great deal of caution is obviously needed in how these feelings are managed and treated because some medical interventions have the potential to do far more harm than good.

CassandraNORI

PuddingPlease I think if the language of gender dysphoria allows young people, who might otherwise have had no language to describe their feelings, a way to explain what is happening for them then that’s not a bad thing. But a great deal of caution is obviously needed in how these feelings are managed and treated because some medical interventions have the potential to do far more harm than good.

I think this is the issue - unfortunately the way these feelings are managed and treated is increasingly through the medical path. Affirmation only, hormones and surgery.

PuddingPlease

CassandraNORI

I’m not sure how true that actually is in Australia.

It’s not my area of expertise however so I am happy to be corrected.

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